Editorsβ note: This past October, Benjamin Riley, the Managing Editor of The New Criterion, spoke by telephone with the architectural historian Clive Aslet and the photographer Dylan Thomas from their homes in England. The two founded Triglyph Books, a new publishing house focusing on architecture. Old Homes, New Life, which was published in July, profiles twelve country houses in Britain, ten of which have not been sold for over five hundred years.1
The New Criterion: How aware of the architectural significance of these homes are the current residents?
Dylan Thomas: I would just talk about an individual house. Take Helmingham Hall; [the Tollemaches] have this wonderful asset that theyβve become the keyholders of, but theyβre aware that they want to modernize, they want to change a kitchen. How do you do that without offending or changing the exterior? As a functional thing, theyβre aware of the difficulties, because of the listed element.
Clive Aslet: I think Dylan has nailed it by saying that all these buildings are protected, and that is one reason why [the owners] have to be much more aware, in the same way that because of the rise in the value of works of art, they know much more than would have been the case, say, in the Edwardian period, when they might have used family portraits as a dartboard or something. That doesnβt happen anymore because everybody knows [the paintings are] worth lots of money. But I think that there are different levels of response to the architecture. At Helmingham, theyβre actually very aware of the fact that the previous generation did a lot to it and are incredibly sensitive to this sense of transition, which is an important theme. So theyβre very conscious, not just of the importance of the house, but theyβre aware of what Ed [Tollemache]βs parents did to it. Somebody like Martin Fiennes at Broughton Castle just adores every aspect of the house. Everything about it. Heβs so intellectually curious. He works in Oxford. His family basically lives in Oxford. But for Martin, [Broughton] was where he grew up. And he is just so interested in the armor, which was all assembled, some of it faked, in the 1860s.
tnc: Fiennes said something astounding, that owning the house, you could find βfifty different things that could become areas of interest or hobbies.β
ca: Thatβs exactly right. And he really means it. And so going around with him is just wonderful because heβs a volcano of enthusiasm. Thatβs not the case with everybody. Some of them are just more aware than others.
tnc: Something I noticed about Helmingham was that it has very chic interiors by a twentieth-century decorator.
ca: Theyβre largely from the Seventies and Eighties. David Mlinaric, the decorator, did them. And he was a great friend of Lord Tollemache. So thereβs a very high level of taste in that house.
tnc: But itβs interesting to see because some of the houses are very βperiod room,β focused on recreating authentic furnishings. And then you have something like Helmingham where itβs a contemporary take on the country house look.
ca: I think thatβs true. But of course, it was done a generation ago. Thinking of recent interviews Iβve conducted with [the decorating firm] Colefax and Fowler, one of the things they said was that these interiors which were done by John Fowler, sometimes as long ago as the Fifties, really keep their quality. They need to be refreshed a little bit, but it shows that if you get a really good decorator it can last; at least it can last if youβre in England. I donβt think thatβs really the case in America, where fashion changes more quickly.
tnc: We have a much more transactional view of these things.
ca: Well, we [in Britain] have a much meaner [stingier] view.
tnc: Thatβs right. Since probably the 1880s in America, thereβs been so much more money kicking around than in England. Houses are discarded, new ones are built, new furniture is bought with every successive generation, which seems to be something that most British people, regardless of the size of their homes, generally canβt afford. And thereβs no culture of doing so.
ca: Thatβs true. Of course, the people that we were writing about, theyβre part of families who have lived in these houses, most of them over five hundred years. It wasnβt intentional, but when we made the selection, we realized that the absolute newcomer had been there for three hundred years. Thereβs a lot of longevity. These are all people whoβve been living in these houses for a long time. So they donβt have that kind of megabucks.
tnc: Thereβs a fundamental difference between the people who build new classical country houses and the people who live in crumbling old ones.
ca: Thatβs right. I keep thinking of our last few days with Colefax and Fowler. For them an aspect of comfort is that you donβt think this thing has been done yesterday, even though it has. Part of the art for them is to make it look as though itβs always been there. I think thatβs quite a common way of people seeing things [in Britain], which wouldnβt be the case in other countries so much.
tnc: The fact that in Europe, the descendants have to split things equally [owing to remnants of the Napoleonic Code] means that houses get out of the family very quickly, which is not true in England.
ca: Of course, one of the themes is the subject of transition and quite a number of the families who are now in the houses have taken them on from parents, because thereβs not much point to these houses if thereβs only two people living in them, with grandchildren coming every so often. Besides, it must be terribly hard work, so thereβs this discussion that has to be had in the family as to whoβs going to take it on. And of course, it was really rather easier in the old days when there was primogeniture, because there was a rule. But itβs obvious now there isnβt a rule. And so those discussions get rather more complicated.
tnc: Dylan, what kind of challenge is it to get shots of places that are so big, and how do you think about a mix of showing the whole house versus certain parts? Whatβs the goal, and how do you approach it?
dt: Thatβs really the biggest challenge. You have to think how traditionally a picture editor or a magazine editor would want to be able to tell a story. So you canβt just focus on the big hero shots. Youβve got to look at some of the more interesting nooks and crannies, and those nooks and crannies tell a story that has a little bit more soul and history to it than the big hero shots. So what was very good about this project was that [Clive and I] visited together at all the properties. We met with the families; we got the atmosphere, got the green light to say, βOkay, you can go in and impose respectfully your presence and document.β And that gave confidence to them and to us, so I could go and photograph pretty much everywhere and anywhere. And that really gave the stories the honesty.
tnc: It seems to me that thereβs a tension, but a good tension, between the lifestyle shots and the architecture shots. And they need to work together towards one goal.
dt: That was great because I went around these homes and appreciated that people have pictures on the grand pianos that are their historical records of their ancestorsβ times. And one of the pictures I wanted us to get [in the book] was one that would be comfortable to sit on that piano. And I hope that ended up on that piano. At the same time, I didnβt want the pictures to feel like they were all contrived portraits. I wanted to show a little bit of a documentary life.
tnc: There are a lot of children and dogs around, which canβt be all that easy to corral.
dt: Unfortunately, animals and children arenβt the easiest. But there was a pot of Maltesers [chocolates] in one of the shots that gradually just went down in heightβas these children became more and more hyperactiveβand Maltesers helped them to do what βinstructorβ told them to do. And theyβre very happy. It was fun. It was really enjoyable. Everybody was on board. There was never one moment of βNo, we donβt want to do that.β Or βThatβs a bit odd.β They were very prepared to go. And at the end of the day, they could refuse the images, and that gave them confidence.
tnc: One of the things that the book talks about is how, in one way or another, each of these properties is open to the public. But there arenβt really shots of the public. Was that by design, you wanting to capture the houses as homes?
ca: Itβs meant to be a beautiful book, Ben!
dt: I worked without an assistant. So that meant walking around these huge places. There were a lot of footsteps, but also I removed endless pinecones that were on seats that were supposed to stop the visitor from sitting, or barriers preventing them from going into rooms. I pulled every trick out to make these homes feel like homes, because they told me, βWe live in these homes; we entertain when we can.β I think weβve got to appreciate that thatβs how they want these homes to be seen as well. They donβt want them to be seen as museums, and theyβre not.
ca: We were writing about them as they were lived in, and of course itβs true that some of them have a lot of public visitors. Inveraray is one which has a lot of people going around. But mostly they donβt have such a very large number [of public visitors], so the focus was on the living in the house. And so the public was there and we didnβt show them. I think the book would have become rather unfocused if weβd had another element like that.
dt: I think for future books, on that theme, you could push it into how these families do involve themselves in the communities, because, whether they are hosting the local fΓͺtes or opening a new building, theyβre very much a part ofβare in fact big pillars ofβthe community. And I think that would have been a lovely side. So for example, at Broughton, one evening they opened and I was there. They had an orchestra and it was a fantastic evening, and I did photograph it, but because I only photographed one house that was being used as an event space, it just didnβt seem right to put that in and not include all the other things that they do to make money and keep the lights on.
tnc: One of the other compelling aspects of the book is that relationship with the community that you talk about. Obviously Inveraray gets a huge number of visitors; itβs a big tourist attraction in Western Scotland. But then you have smaller-scale things that sound a lot more traditional, like having the local children in for tea at Christmas. And the fact that Doddington Hall has as many employees now on the estate as they did at its agricultural height, thatβs fascinating. Because all you hear about is how these places are really not providing the care for their communities that they had in the past, but it doesnβt sound like thatβs the case at all.
ca: No, I donβt think so. I think that actually itβs something which all houses are very aware of. Of course, itβs really hard work to run these places. I wouldnβt want to live in one myself. They have to give everything, all their time to this house, which is their family responsibility. And theyβre all very anxious to not be the generation which drops the ball. That was something several people said, that this has been in our family for five hundred years, I donβt want to be the one who mucks it up. But they have a lot of responsibility. Part of the responsibility is that they feel that they must support their community. These days everybodyβs very aware when theyβve got many more assets than everyone else and a more glamorous lifestyle. They know this has never been something that everybody has, and so they feel a very strong desire to support the community in different ways. In the case of Hutton-in-the-Forest, for example, there are very few cultural landmarks anywhere nearby. So if you were to remove Hutton-in-the-Forest from the equation, or even if it were bought by a new owner and they didnβt let anyone go there, the area would be bereft of any kind of visual culture. So they are doing that almost without thinking, but also theyβre usually supporting events, which need space and which need a focus. Itβs the natural place to go for many of these events, to go to the big house.
tnc: The National Trust [the British charity tasked with preserving the countryβs historic heritage] has been in the news lately, for its goal of βrepurposingβ its properties. You get the sense from reading this book that these owners are thrilled not to be in the care of the National Trust. You had an explicit example at Burton Agnes, where the National Trust man comes around and says something nasty, and, well, thatβs the end of that. The National Trust is the big player in the historic house field in Britain; how do these houses fit into that larger ecosystem of historic houses?
ca: [The houses in this book] are so much more interesting. The National Trust is terribly sad because when I started work, the National Trust was an absolute world leader, and there was a tremendous amount of respect and a huge amount of scholarship associated with the National Trust. And so these places were very highly respected. And there was a need. Everybody recognized that; in fact it was really the Labour government after the Second World War which said, βThese places are significant and important and we have to think of a way of preserving them.β And there was a political recognition that, actually, keeping private owners in these houses was a cost-effective way of doing it, but the National Trust was another way of doing it, and a tremendous number of houses went to the National Trust. But unfortunately that moment has passed. I wish this werenβt so, because for a long time I almost refused to believe that [the rot] had gone so completely through the organization, but theyβre having the most enormous identity crisis. And theyβre really very uncomfortable about these houses, and theyβre very βwoke.β They want to tell the story of slavery. Thatβs only a tiny part of what these houses were about, but thatβs the lens they see it through.
tnc: Dylan, when youβre going around these houses without an assistant, which is remarkable to think in a place like Hopetoun House, how long does it take you to get all the shots you need?
dt: I was very fortunate. I was allowed time, and that was two to three days. So it wasnβt rushed, and every movement was respected. So I waited for rooms to be empty of visitors. I waited for the subjects to be ready. I waited for the lights. So I really cherry-picked the times. And also I shot more than was used. I didnβt want a book of twelve state ballrooms. So I had to think: okay, have I got a good one? Have I got a better one? Iβm not sure. Letβs see, letβs also do that. So I know that I could quite easily put another whole book together on the same houses and not show one picture again. And I donβt think it would be much weaker.
tnc: If this sells well, Iβll look forward to the inevitable sequel.
dt: Iβve done the work, but it is also an archive, a very important archive. And I felt this wasnβt a commercial project. It was a fun, βletβs do something goodβ project. Letβs do it for a subject that is actually maybe a little less fashionable, but also needing a little bit more support. And [the owners] really made it possible and respected it. I donβt think they ever acknowledged it, but I think they respected our understanding of it. We could quite easily do a book entitled Old Homes, New Art, which would be a spin-off looking at something that had a lot of wealth behind it. And it would be very marketable in a contemporary sense.
tnc: And when you talk about it being an archive, it brings to mind the Country Life picture archive, which is invaluable to architectural historians. Do you see these shots that didnβt make it in the book being made public at any point, for the benefit of researchers?
dt: I definitely donβt feel that they need to be hid away. At the same time, I think that each house has enough visual reference in the book for someone to actually feel βI understand it.β Anyone doing a paper would probably ask to get in touch if they wanted to find out more. And I think thatβs part and parcel of the return.
ca: In fifty or a hundred yearsβ time, itβs going to be a portrait of this moment.
dt: I think we set about with the understanding that it will be a historical book. Weβve just done another print run, and I imagine in the next two years, there will be 10,000-plus copies of this book. And, it should be [that way], because I love our angle. Interior books have always been about interiors and less about the people that are creative. Iβve always felt thatβs understood and explained in text, but how do kids actually live with their football shirts in these houses? And how do girls play on that grand piano? And thatβs it: βGo on, show usβshow us your sock drawer.β And this book does show it a little bit.
tnc: One of the other intriguing things in the background of the book, not made terribly explicit, is the difference between the way these houses are thought of in England and the way theyβre thought of in Scotland.
ca: Well, itβs so sensitive. Not from my point of view, but for the owners itβs a very tricky subject to address. Of course thereβs a lot of anxiety, you can be absolutely certain. I suppose thereβs a particular issue for Scottish landowners, with crofters [small tenant farmers] for example. They have a right to buy the houses they live in, and for an estate thatβs very difficult because all these places have to work. You donβt want a little bit of the estate right in the middle that has a private landowner on it. And so theyβd rather use those cottages as holiday lets than rent them out to people who would then get the right to buy them. So thatβs the sort of issue. But in general, there is quite a lot of anxiety because opinion polls at the moment show that a majority of people in Scotland would vote for independence. Given that the tax base is so small in Scotland, that wouldnβt be very propitious for owners of large country houses. And also thereβs a whole mythology in Scotland, like in Ireland. Thereβs a myth of the landlord as somebody who isnβt resident and who treats Scottish people terribly badly. But of course that doesnβt really hold water in a historical sense, but nevertheless, itβs very, very strong in peopleβs minds.
dt: I think just from the experience of those two homes [in Scotland] that I photographed, we know that they are very connected with the people on land and they are as active, if not more active, with the community [than owners in England]. I think they appreciated things maybe a little bit more.
ca: Take Inveraray, in particularβHopetoun is right outside Edinburgh, so itβs not quite so much the caseβbut Inveraray is way off to the west.
dt: And thereβs nothing there.
ca: If Inveraray didnβt exist, what would happen? It is such a big employer and income-generator for the locality. If the Argylls packed up and went to live in the South of France, thereβd be nothing for anyone to do.
dt: And Torquhil [the Duke of Argyll] went to the local village school, and he went throughout his education in the local area, which I just think is incredible.
tnc: Unexpected.
dt: But heβs very passionate, very loyal, a member of a family supportive of tradition.
tnc: Well, that was something that struck me, how at Grimsthorpe thereβs not much commercial shooting, but they employ a gamekeeper and, obviously, itβs better for the environment in general, but it also creates a job.
ca: I donβt think any of them do it for charity. They wouldnβt create the job if they werenβt getting something back from it. Really in all these places everythingβs got to work. Grimsthorpe has some money in the background; the mother of Lady Willoughby, who owns it, was an Astor. But no fortune lasts forever. So they all have to make these places work.
tnc: At Inveraray, Torquhil Argyll talks about how every aspect of the estate has to βsweat.β
ca: I think thatβs really how they all think about it. Firle Place is a good one; they have a very benign view with rents. They own a lot of property and they let it out slightly below market rate. They are very keen to have people who are local, so I suppose thatβs a good example of community, but, when we were there the place was being taken apart to be filmed for a screen version of Emma. And they have the television program Bake Off in the riding house.
dt: But going back to those rents, how they are really low in Firle, itβs kept [houses on the estate affordable for] local Sussex people that I think would have been priced out of that area. And youβve got the most incredible pubs. Youβve got an incredible village school in Firle and thereβs a church and thereβs a very charismatic priest that really is a bit of a celebrity in himself.
ca: Itβs absolutely magical, dream-like really. But theyβve got this enormous estate, eight thousand acres, and itβs in this very prime part of the British Isles. I thought that, given that everybodyβs trying to make money, they would have considered building a new village or something. And [Lord Gage] said, βOh yeah, weβve got some property plans weβre thinking of. And I may be seeing if we could build a dozen houses.β It was tiny in relation to what they could do. Thatβs because they just like it as it is. They didnβt really want it to be different, and they own it. So itβs their choice.
tnc: So whatβs next for Trigylph Books?
ca: I really thought of this book as being something that was going to be a showcase for what we could do. And we were expecting to do lots of books [as publishers] for other people, but actually I think I can speak for both of us to say that we really enjoyed it. So weβre quite keen to do something which is in the same territory. Weβre working on a book on the Ashdown Forest. Because of covid, everybody has been thinking very much about their homes and their own area, and this is Dylanβs area. So anyway, we have projects for ourselves, and we will do other projects around great estates or country houses. And we have some very good projects which are underway. We produced a book for Oliver Cope, an architect in New York, and one for John Simpson about the architecture school that he built at Notre Dame, in Indiana.
tnc: So two American projects for two Englishmen.
ca: Well, it was lovely talking to these decorators earlier this week and they said, βWe have to be grateful for the American ladies that came over and turned these old cold houses into homes with bathrooms and soft furnishings.β
1 Old Homes, New Life: The Resurgence of the British Country House, by Clive Aslet, with photographs by Dylan Thomas; Triglyph Books, 304 pages, $65.